Tube Rolling Suggestions

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Tube Rolling Suggestions

Postby CpuZapper » Tue Aug 07, 2012 9:51 pm

Hello Guys, has anyone played with the Traynor YCS100H2?

Can 12AX7's be used in place of the 12ax7a's without issues?

I have emailed Traynor to double check, no reply yet.

I have not listened to the Amp but my buddy said he never uses it as it sounds muddy (He plays Metal and Hard Rock). The user manual said it uses four 12AX7A and four EL34Eh tubes.

He said he would like a cleaner sound.

I have a few different 12AX7's I can swap out but don't have any replacements for the El34's. Someone suggested 6CA7's but from reading I'm thinking KT77 might be closer to the sound he might be looking for.

Any suggestions?
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Postby Geek » Tue Aug 07, 2012 11:07 pm

Yes.

If it has 12AX7 at the beginning, you can use 12AX7A or the myriad of other suffix letters coming out of Russia these days, no problem.

If he wants a cleaner sound, you can even try dropping in 12AT7's as well.

Cheers!
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Postby EWBrown » Wed Aug 08, 2012 9:15 am

12AX7, 12AX7A, ECC83, 7025, 7058 and multiple Chinese variations, just try for the one that makes the tonal qualities that you prefer.

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Postby CpuZapper » Wed Aug 08, 2012 11:30 am

I was looking at trying the (12AX7 ) Nos EI's first then the Nos Tesla's, both I think will get closer to the sound he is looking for.

I have no EL34's, 6CA7's or KT77's.
Any suggestions for the output tubes?
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Postby Gingertube » Wed Aug 08, 2012 11:39 pm

This may be handy:
http://www.traynoramps.com/downloads/se ... s100h2.pdf

I have never had much luck with EI 12AX7. They were original fits in a lot of Marshall Amps but I think they were selected for Marshall at the factory. Then there was a whole lot of them which went out to the genearl market at quite cheap prices. I bought 6 of them and ended up throwing out all 6, just too noisy. You may have got some of the good ones.

Weak tubes can cause muddy sound. How old is the amp?
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Postby CpuZapper » Thu Aug 09, 2012 1:23 pm

Will have to ask on the age of the Amp, tubes should be like new as he does not play it often. The service manual I have downloaded before and did notice the parts list showing 12AX7 but the user manual reports the preamp tubes as 12AX7A's.

Traynor did email back and said it's no problem using the 12AX7's.

I picked up the EI tubes about 10 years ago, not sure how old they are.
I did test some of them in a Audio preamp and I don't remember any noise but they were bright-thin sounding in that preamp. Will be interesting to see how they sound in the Traynor.

Will listen for any noise when we test (Thanks for the tip), he will be away for a week or so for a holiday, hope to try some options when he gets back.
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Postby jonnyeye » Tue Aug 14, 2012 2:14 am

Good EI 12AX7s are very nice indeed (they are my personal favourite, of tubes I've tried, for EL84 powered guitar amps), but they were often selected out of the batches and rebranded for Marshall, Groove Tubes etc. (old GT-7025 are the simplest option - when you can find them). The rejects it seems got sold on to others later, so the quality of the house-branded tubes is spotty at best, with a tendency towards microphonics. I can't personally comment on EL34 types, as I don't own any amps that use them.
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Postby CpuZapper » Tue Aug 14, 2012 9:10 am

I think I bought them from a dealer so they are probably picked over and the cream removed. It won't hurt to try them, we just have to listen for issues and if he likes them I do have extras if problems occur.

The EI's and Tesla's I have the most of, I do have a few EH and Sovtek tubes but I never liked them in audio so not sure how they sound in a Guitar amp. I'm working on a old Paul Amp that uses 12AX7A's, if I get that running it might give me some idea of how they will sound in his amp.
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Postby nyazzip » Mon Aug 27, 2012 12:40 pm

IMHO:
unless this guy is cranking the amp(and at 100 watts i kind of doubt he is...), i don't believe changing the power tubes out is going to have much impact. of the 3 types, el34 is purported to be the most "midrangey". 6ca7 are super expensive... but if he absolutely must have them, i can sell you a used quad of Sylvanias for $500 $) :/ ;)
as far as preamp tubes, switching from different brands of 12ax7 will have even less impact. switching tube types on the other hand, to lower-gain factor types such as 5751 and 12at7 as others mentioned, should make a quite difference.
although i am no "seasoned tube guru", based on my observations i'm afraid i am not much a believer in tube rolling and cork sniffery...
my suspicion is that his guitar uses high output humbuckers, and that is where the "mud" is coming from. most modern humbuckers are 10K ohm and up(way up), which puts out a high voltage input signal and rolls off all the treble before the tone even gets to the amp. maybe get him to try a guitar that uses "vintage style PAF" pickups. or better yet, a strat or tele! (666)
and finally, maybe his speakers are no good.
i would wager that the guitar, and the actual amp circuitry with clipping diodes and such, is the bulk of the problem, and not tubes
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Re: Tube Rolling Suggestions

Postby Gingertube » Wed Mar 06, 2013 9:15 pm

This amp is designed for mud although I guess they call it something else.

Look at the Phase Splitter tube V8
V8-A has 113K parallel 113K = 65k5 Anode Load
V8 - B has 200K parallel 200K = 100K Anode Load
That much imbalance is deliberate to introduces masses of even harmonic distortion.
Huge amounts of even harmonic distortion sounds very "covered" or muddy.

R163 at 1K2 means the PI is biased fairly cold and the 8K2 tail resistor is "wimpy" meaning the Phase Splitter has very little self balancing action, that would have been done deliberately to work with the massively unbalance anode loads.

If you want to apply what we aussies call the "bugger factor" to this amp I would suggest pulling those 113K resistors on V8-A anode and replacing them with 180K. Then 180K parallel 180K will give you 90K as the anode load.

90K and 100K anode loads on the phase splitter will give you a little imbalance for some 2nd harmonic distortion but nothing like the masses of it introduced by the old "excessive" values of 56K5 and 100K.

My view is that that would do way more to fix up the sound than any swapping of tubes.

I guess some people must like that sound but it is not the first occasion where I've heard of someone complaining about the sound of an amp where the designer had deliberately, massively unbalanced the phase splitter. The Mesa Subway Rocket is another example where it was done and I've certainly modified at least one of them to restore most of the phase splitter balance to the delight of the owner.

Cheers,
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