BOM's need updating

sweet & juicy SE amp for 1626 Darlings and the 6L6 family

BOM's need updating

Postby jukingeo » Sat Mar 20, 2021 11:51 am

Hello All,

I have tried out the BOM list for the Clementine amplifiers at Mouser and it seems many of the components come up as only available in large quantities and/or they are not currently being carried. Does anyone have an update on this list?

Thank you,
Geo
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Re: BOM's need updating

Postby vvelt » Sat Mar 20, 2021 5:23 pm

I just went through this with another project. You have to look for equivalent values and types of resistors and caps. Mouser dropped carrying the small Xicon power resistors and now you have to special order those in quantities of 100 so use Yago and Koa Speer instead. Use the parametric search to zero in the the values and power ratings in the BOM. This will take some time but it’s do-able.
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Re: BOM's need updating

Postby jukingeo » Sun Mar 21, 2021 10:18 am

vvelt wrote:I just went through this with another project. You have to look for equivalent values and types of resistors and caps. Mouser dropped carrying the small Xicon power resistors and now you have to special order those in quantities of 100 so use Yago and Koa Speer instead. Use the parametric search to zero in the the values and power ratings in the BOM. This will take some time but it’s do-able.


Yes, I was doing that. Some of the 100+ ones only came out to a few bucks, so I just put the 100 quantity in. But there were some items that were discontinued, such as the power resistors. I know it is going to be an undertaking to go through Mouser and find alternatives. Luckily, a project can be saved for later retrieval so I can work on it little by little.

While I have you, I am assuming you have built amps like this before. When it comes to the types of resistors to use, are there sonic improvements from one type over the other? In other words, is carbon film better than metal oxide (film) in the signal path? I know when it comes to the power supply I stick with metal oxide or wirewounds, but there are those that say a wirewound in the cathode circuit can act like an inductor. Also traditionally, the plate and grid leak resistors were carbon composition and many like the sound of that, but I know all to well that carbon comp resistors don't do well in circuits with heat.

I am curious to hear your input on this given that I have to make changes in the order anyway before I put it through. So if there is a certain type of resistor that performs better in a certain location, I would like to know about it.

Thank you,
Geo
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Re: BOM's need updating

Postby vvelt » Mon Mar 22, 2021 5:34 pm

I built a Chubby Clementine several years ago when most of those parts were still available. Then I picked up an abandoned Darling Clem board on eBay that is populated, however some of the parts on it are incorrect. I ordered some replacement parts but just haven’t gone through the board yet. One of the wrong parts on my board is that 3watt wire wound cathode bias resistor for the 1627’s, those aren’t available now. I found some metal oxides that should work there, but let me see if there’s another series of wire wound Vishay’s for that, I’ll check that tomorrow.

There is a row of Vishay metal film 1/2 watt resistors across the front of the board that should all still be available and you should stick with those. There is no “mojo” advantage to using carbon films there. The metal oxide resistors should be kept that way with the same power ratings. Those take some voltage and dissipate some heat so metal oxide types are best used there. Different brands will be fine for those, they don’t have to be the same ones on the BOM, where a 2 watt is called for find another 2 watt MO. I’ll have to double-check the board I have to make sure those are correct as well.

For the lyric caps you may not find the same ones in the BOM but just pick some Nichicon’s at the same value and voltage ratings. Also check the lead spacing to make sure yours will fit in the holes on the board. For the diodes, you can find those, I think they changed the part number for the UF4007’s but that’s OK. I don’t know if they still list the Orange Drop coupling caps, if not then just find some at .22uf and 400 or 600 volt. Many audiophiles will go nuts over expensive caps, but you need to go to a boutique supplier for those. The audiophiles give a nod to the Cornell Dubilier 940c series that I think is carried on Mouser. Check the size of these to make sure they’ll fit on the board, some of the fancy coupling caps can be huge.

Let me go through the board I have tomorrow and I’ll get back to you with anything I find out.
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Re: BOM's need updating

Postby jukingeo » Tue Mar 23, 2021 6:56 am

vvelt wrote:I built a Chubby Clementine several years ago when most of those parts were still available. Then I picked up an abandoned Darling Clem board on eBay that is populated, however some of the parts on it are incorrect. I ordered some replacement parts but just haven’t gone through the board yet. One of the wrong parts on my board is that 3watt wire wound cathode bias resistor for the 1627’s, those aren’t available now. I found some metal oxides that should work there, but let me see if there’s another series of wire wound Vishay’s for that, I’ll check that tomorrow.

There is a row of Vishay metal film 1/2 watt resistors across the front of the board that should all still be available and you should stick with those. There is no “mojo” advantage to using carbon films there. The metal oxide resistors should be kept that way with the same power ratings. Those take some voltage and dissipate some heat so metal oxide types are best used there. Different brands will be fine for those, they don’t have to be the same ones on the BOM, where a 2 watt is called for find another 2 watt MO. I’ll have to double-check the board I have to make sure those are correct as well.

For the lyric caps you may not find the same ones in the BOM but just pick some Nichicon’s at the same value and voltage ratings. Also check the lead spacing to make sure yours will fit in the holes on the board. For the diodes, you can find those, I think they changed the part number for the UF4007’s but that’s OK. I don’t know if they still list the Orange Drop coupling caps, if not then just find some at .22uf and 400 or 600 volt. Many audiophiles will go nuts over expensive caps, but you need to go to a boutique supplier for those. The audiophiles give a nod to the Cornell Dubilier 940c series that I think is carried on Mouser. Check the size of these to make sure they’ll fit on the board, some of the fancy coupling caps can be huge.

Let me go through the board I have tomorrow and I’ll get back to you with anything I find out.



Hello vvelt,

Thank you for the in depth response. I do have a few questions, if you don't mind my asking:

Are metal film resistors the same as metal oxide? So these are the preferred type throughout the design?

How critical are part values? I have a bunch of 910 ohm wirewounds, can these be used in place of the 1k resistor 3w resistor? For other 1k resistors, I have 1.1k Also, Why 475k for the grid resistors? I have 470k or 480k. All smaller resistors I have are metal oxide. Are these good values?

As for the coupling caps. I do have the Orange Drops. However, I do have some new Dayton paper in oil caps, but I would have to see if they fit. Most likely not.

Do you know if someone else is going to produce Clementine PCBs in the future? It would be nice if someone here would do it, if Shannon allows it.

Thank you for the info,

Geo
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Re: BOM's need updating

Postby vvelt » Tue Mar 23, 2021 3:48 pm

Are metal film resistors the same as metal oxide?

No, use metal film in the audio path and metal oxide where handling more current is required. Stick with the plan.

910 ohm wirewounds

No, this will run your NOS 1626 tubes too hot. Keep the 1k 3watt values. You could use either wire wound or metal oxide here.

For other 1k resistors, I have 1.1k Also, Why 475k for the grid resistors? I have 470k

If you have metal or carbon film at 470k those will be fine in place of the 475k.
For the 1k resistors it's better to stick with metal film rather than metal oxide.

Dayton paper in oil caps

If they'll fit on the board then use those. Many audiophiles will use better grade coupling caps. The old Orange Drops are pretty much the domain of guitar amps these days.

PCBs in the future?

I don't think Shannon wants to do that. But Jim Whitmore made a board that's a dead ringer for the Get SET Go board and I bought one. I'm still working out how I want to build the amp for it. You could check and see if he has another one, viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7050

Here's what I found for the BOM:

Locations R19, R20 are for parallel resistors used on the Chubby Clem. The Darling Clem uses R17, R20 only, 1K @ 3 watt. For the Darling build either a MO or WW could be used. The Vishay/Sfernice was a very compact and robust wirewound, but this series has dissapeared on Mouser. These other Vishay wirewounds will also work and are close to the same size in order to fit on the board. You can check the specs against the discontinuted one to compare:
71-ALSR031K000FE12
594-AC03W1K000J, I've used the Draloric's before and they're fine.

R21 in the power supply is also a Vishay/Sfernice resistor that's discontinued. Again the Draloric series will be fine there, I used those on a Get SET Go.
594-AC03W100R0J

The 1 and 2 watt Xicon metal oxide resistors now have a minimum order. You can use the MO resistors by KOA Speer instead, just keep the same values and wattage ratings.

The Vishay/Dale metal film 1/2 watt resistors are in stock, use those.

C1,C2 obsolete from Sprague. Replaced by Cornell Dubilier:
598-715P22454MD3 copy of the old orange drop
5984-940C6P22K-F better quality cap

C3,C4 use 647-UVZ1E221MPD1TD this is in stock

C5,C6 100uF, 100V is out of stock, this is the cathode bypass cap for the output tubes. You can substitute with this one, 647-UVY2A101MPD1TD

C7, C10 and C11, C12 these are in stock

Also see these photos of a Clementine board, yours should look like this:

http://www.diytube.com/clementine/clementine1.jpg
http://www.diytube.com/clementine/clementine3.jpg
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Re: BOM's need updating

Postby vvelt » Tue Mar 23, 2021 4:11 pm

Here's the board I rescued from eBay. Note that there are 2 1k metal oxide resistors in parallel configuration, which is only for the Chubby Clem at higher values. The Darling Clementine just needs one resistor on either side, so this is resulting in only 500 ohms for cathode bias. Somebody probably burned up a nice pair of 1626 tubes this way! What I might do is put in 2 2k metal oxide resistors, which would give me the correct 1k cathode bias value.

rescue-clementine.jpg
rescue-clementine.jpg (67.81 KiB) Viewed 524 times
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Re: BOM's need updating

Postby jukingeo » Tue Mar 23, 2021 9:53 pm

Hello again,


vvelt wrote:
Are metal film resistors the same as metal oxide?

No, use metal film in the audio path and metal oxide where handling more current is required. Stick with the plan.


Ok, most of the ones I have in my 'stash' are Metal film. I have some NOS RCA branded resistors and NTE ones. But these are mostly in odd values, so it looks like I will have to order some resistors anyway.

910 ohm wirewounds

No, this will run your NOS 1626 tubes too hot. Keep the 1k 3watt values. You could use either wire wound or metal oxide here.


Okay, gotcha.

For other 1k resistors, I have 1.1k Also, Why 475k for the grid resistors? I have 470k

If you have metal or carbon film at 470k those will be fine in place of the 475k.
For the 1k resistors it's better to stick with metal film rather than metal oxide.


Yes, these I have in metal film.

Dayton paper in oil caps

If they'll fit on the board then use those. Many audiophiles will use better grade coupling caps. The old Orange Drops are pretty much the domain of guitar amps these days.


I still have to check these for size, but it is funny you mention Orange Drop caps in regards to guitar amplifiers. Those caps were the go-to for recapping old Marshalls, Vox's and Fenders. In fact that is where I ended up getting my stash from when I was servicing guitar amplifiers!

PCBs in the future?

I don't think Shannon wants to do that. But Jim Whitmore made a board that's a dead ringer for the Get SET Go board and I bought one. I'm still working out how I want to build the amp for it. You could check and see if he has another one, viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7050


I wasn't too interested in that board. The Clementine and Poseidon boards were the ones I am after.

Here's what I found for the BOM:

Locations R19, R20 are for parallel resistors used on the Chubby Clem. The Darling Clem uses R17, R20 only, 1K @ 3 watt. For the Darling build either a MO or WW could be used. The Vishay/Sfernice was a very compact and robust wirewound, but this series has dissapeared on Mouser. These other Vishay wirewounds will also work and are close to the same size in order to fit on the board. You can check the specs against the discontinuted one to compare:
71-ALSR031K000FE12
594-AC03W1K000J, I've used the Draloric's before and they're fine.

R21 in the power supply is also a Vishay/Sfernice resistor that's discontinued. Again the Draloric series will be fine there, I used those on a Get SET Go.
594-AC03W100R0J

The 1 and 2 watt Xicon metal oxide resistors now have a minimum order. You can use the MO resistors by KOA Speer instead, just keep the same values and wattage ratings.

The Vishay/Dale metal film 1/2 watt resistors are in stock, use those.

C1,C2 obsolete from Sprague. Replaced by Cornell Dubilier:
598-715P22454MD3 copy of the old orange drop
5984-940C6P22K-F better quality cap

C3,C4 use 647-UVZ1E221MPD1TD this is in stock

C5,C6 100uF, 100V is out of stock, this is the cathode bypass cap for the output tubes. You can substitute with this one, 647-UVY2A101MPD1TD

C7, C10 and C11, C12 these are in stock

Also see these photos of a Clementine board, yours should look like this:

http://www.diytube.com/clementine/clementine1.jpg
http://www.diytube.com/clementine/clementine3.jpg

[/quote]

Thank you for that information, it is big help to just plug those values in. I do have some of the capacitors and they are the Xicon brand. I don't have 120uf 450 volt caps, but I do have them in 100uf. Many of the smaller caps I have already, so I don't have to order a lot.

vvelt wrote:Here's the board I rescued from eBay. Note that there are 2 1k metal oxide resistors in parallel configuration, which is only for the Chubby Clem at higher values. The Darling Clementine just needs one resistor on either side, so this is resulting in only 500 ohms for cathode bias. Somebody probably burned up a nice pair of 1626 tubes this way! What I might do is put in 2 2k metal oxide resistors, which would give me the correct 1k cathode bias value.

rescue-clementine.jpg


So it was set up as a Darling and someone made the mistake of putting two 1k resistors in place instead of one? Ouch! Hope it wasn't a nice pair of brown base JAN tubes. I have an NOS pair of those and they look VERY nice. I hope they sound nice too.

Thanks again!

Geo
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Re: BOM's need updating

Postby vvelt » Wed Mar 24, 2021 2:14 pm

Hi, I just made a new post for the board I have, I guess we'll be building together.
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Re: BOM's need updating

Postby jukingeo » Wed Mar 24, 2021 9:32 pm

vvelt wrote:Hi, I just made a new post for the board I have, I guess we'll be building together.


Perhaps. I had brought out the box that I had the JE Labs EL34 SE project in as I know I had the PIO caps in there. They are .22uf 630 volts and they are huge. They are not the Dayton caps, but by some company that starts with an "S" (I forgot already. Not Sprague though. The Dayton caps I have are Poly films. They are good caps, but not the right values. So I am probably going to have to either use the Orange Drops, which will fit, or buy some more.

I also could have sworn I have bought the PCB mount tube sockets, but I can't find them. The beauty of moving, you forget where everything is. I probably will go through my other parts boxes over the weekend.

I have to laugh at how heavy the box is with that EL34 SE project. Four large pieces of iron in there. Definitely will feel like the heaviest 8 watt per channel amp in existence. But yeah, I am going to start 'lighter' first with the Clementine board.

I really would like to get another Clementine board, so one could be dedicated for the Darling build and the other for the 6L6 varieties. But I will try both as the transformers I am getting from Edcor will support both.

So the next step is putting in those part suggestions above.

Should I use the Orange Drops, or is there something better I can use there that is proven good sonically?

Regards,
Geo
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Re: BOM's need updating

Postby vvelt » Thu Mar 25, 2021 6:45 am

I must confess I assumed you wanted the Darling version but that’s only because I’m dealing with that currently. I built the Chubby version several years ago and there are different parts for that. That amp came out great and I liked it best with a vintage 6SL7 and JJ KT77’s, very clear and punchy sound. I also built a Get SET Go and now have a new board from jwhitmore I’ll use for a 300B version. For my first GSG I used Mundorf Supreme coupling caps from Soniccraft and those are excellent. They fit the board and didn’t need any break-in to sound good. If you want to stick with caps from Mouser then the Cornell Dubilier 940C series gets an honorable mention by audiophiles. There is also the Auricap XO you can get from TubeDepot. Most other caps are just too big to fit on a board.

You can spend hours pouring over these boutique coupling cap reviews:
http://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/Cap.html
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Re: BOM's need updating

Postby jukingeo » Thu Mar 25, 2021 9:34 pm

vvelt wrote:I must confess I assumed you wanted the Darling version but that’s only because I’m dealing with that currently.


Yes, mainly, but I am also interested in the Chubby version too and that will be for more tube rolling and experimenting with transformers.

I built the Chubby version several years ago and there are different parts for that. That amp came out great and I liked it best with a vintage 6SL7 and JJ KT77’s, very clear and punchy sound.


With me I have some tube pulls from my guitar amplifier servicing days. So I would be working with a variety of tubes, mostly 6L6, EL34's and 6550's.+

I also built a Get SET Go and now have a new board from jwhitmore I’ll use for a 300B version.


I am not big on the 300B and you probably know why. If something gets too expensive, I shy away from it. What started me on the JE Labs EL34 SE amplifier was that on three different occasions, someone that owned a 300b amplifier said the EL34 SE beat the pants off the 300b and for far less money...so that grabbed my attention.

For my first GSG I used Mundorf Supreme coupling caps from Soniccraft and those are excellent.


I have been reading a lot about those capacitors lately and in my PM to you I even asked about them in addition to the Auricaps.

They fit the board and didn’t need any break-in to sound good.


This is what I heard about the Auricaps and that they need a break in period?!?! I heard of that with tubes, but not with caps before.

If you want to stick with caps from Mouser then the Cornell Dubilier 940C series gets an honorable mention by audiophiles.


I probably will go with those for the Darling amp, but perhaps the Mundorfs for the Chubby Clementine.

There is also the Auricap XO you can get from TubeDepot. Most other caps are just too big to fit on a board.


LOL! You can tell that I am answering this as I am reading along as that was the other cap brand I was looking into.

You can spend hours pouring over these boutique coupling cap reviews:
http://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/Cap.html


Thanks for the info, I will take a peak at that.

On the more inexpensive side, I have come across metallized film poly caps for coupling. These might be more along the lines of the Sprague. I am assuming the Corn Dubs are of this type as well?

I have used Solens before and note they do sound better than Orange Drops, but they are huge. Not really PCB mount friendly.

I have a lot of large Solen's as there was a phase when people where saying they are better in a power supply than electrolytic caps. Now, I don't see that trend anymore, many are still using electrolytic caps.

Anyway, thanks again!

Geo
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Re: BOM's need updating

Postby vvelt » Sat Mar 27, 2021 10:27 am

Hi Jukingeo, did you PM me? If so I didn't get it. I might replace the orange drops on my board with Dayton film and foil caps I got a while back. I used those on another amp and they seemed pretty good. I finally figured out that the board I have was modified to use 12V6 output tubes, which I don't have, but I do have a pair of 1626's.
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Re: BOM's need updating

Postby jukingeo » Sat Mar 27, 2021 5:51 pm

vvelt wrote:Hi Jukingeo, did you PM me? If so I didn't get it. I might replace the orange drops on my board with Dayton film and foil caps I got a while back. I used those on another amp and they seemed pretty good. I finally figured out that the board I have was modified to use 12V6 output tubes, which I don't have, but I do have a pair of 1626's.


Yes, I did PM, you. So you didn't get it? Well, that's rich! Now I have to answer that all over again. One of the problems of these PHP sites...they often glitch. Yeah, I mentioned that the oil caps I had were Dayton, but that wasn't correct. The oil caps I think are Seaqua or something like that. They are not Sprague. However, I cannot use them on the Darling board and I figured I would leave them for the EL34 SE amplifier. I DO have Dayton caps, but they film types and are only 400 volt. I know they specify 600 for the coupling caps on the Chubby Clementine. However, after doing much research, I am thinking of going with the Mundorf MCap Supreme .22uf 1000volt caps as they measure 39mm by 20mm diameter and they would JUST FIT on the Clementine PCB. The Munford caps have a couple advantage over the Auri caps with the big one not needing a huge break in period. Also they are "nicely" priced as I can get them for $12 each. I still think it is pricey, but given that Mundorf is a highly regarded cap, it seems to win out in the price vs performance category. I think when you get to spending over $50 on a cap, you enter the world of diminishing returns. As it is, I still intend to compare the Mundorfs to the Orange Drops to see how much better they are.

I had purchased my 1626's right at the time Jeremy Epstein came out with his Darling variants. Both Bob and Jeremy recommended the JAN 1626 tubes and that was what I purchased. They look really nice to and I managed to buy two sets as I initially wanted to put together a Double Darling. However, there were many that were against it, so going with one set, that will leave another pair as spares.

Well, now I have to go back an answer the PM again. I am not surprised that happened as I have seen it before on other PHP driven sites.

Edit: I have sent a new version of my reply to your PM just now. Hopefully you will get it. However, I have noticed that my first message I sent IS IN my sent messages. So I have no idea why you didn't get it.

While I have you, I wanted to ask. Are the capacitors that bypass the cathode resistors critical? Given that it is a cathode bypass, it is in the signal path and many have said that putting Solen cap here instead of regular electrolytic caps will improve the sound. Yet, over the years, the shift has been to using better coupling caps. I am curious to hear your take on this.

Geo
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Re: BOM's need updating

Postby vvelt » Sun Mar 28, 2021 9:27 am

Still haven't received a PM in my inbox. That's how it goes.

The Mundorf Supreme's are good. With the Darling you could use another 400v cap.

I have JAN 1626 tubes as well. Bought them several years ago and will finally put them to use. The boxes are cool, dating them to wartime.

For cathode bypass caps, the ones in the BOM should be fine and they are long life high temperature rated. However, there are audio grade lytic caps available from Nichicon and Elna. See this page on Mouser that lists the different audio grade caps from Nichicon:

https://www.mouser.com/new/nichicon/Nichicon-Audio-Caps

The KZ or "Muse" series are larger and their lead spacing won't match up with the board. However their FG or "Fine Gold" series will work fine for the power tubes as long as you keep them away from the hot cathode resistors. These are rated for up to 100v. The KA series are high temp rated and go up to 50v. I ordered these from Digikey since Mouser was out of stock.

UFG2A101MHM
UKA1E221MPD1TD

With small orders on Digikey you can select the cheapest shipping method which is USPS and as long as it's under a certain weight it will go out that way.

I've read where film caps are great for bypass, but they're just too huge.
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